Transcript of the episode:
Hi everyone, welcome to The Artist Tao. Today's our introductory podcast to the book by Sean Starr called The Artist Tao. So first question, Sean, is when did you write the first edition for The Artist Tao? Because I know you just published a second edition. When was the first edition, when did that come out?
I started writing it in 2006 and it ended up getting published in I think it was the spring of 2008. And that all came about from different gallery exhibitions I was doing at the time, and the artists I was coming across and then other artists that I'd worked with for years on other types of projects. And just kind of trying to distill down a handful of ideas on things that... It seemed to be things that resonated not only with myself, but with other artists on kind of little guidelines, if you will, of what it's like to pursue the path of working as an artist and trying to support yourself as an artist.
So that was my next question. So what inspired you to write the book? Was it because you were doing the art galleries and the different artists, you noticed a common thread and thought you'd put them all together?
Yeah, you know, as others that I've crossed paths with over the decades, you know, can attest, I kind of had this thing in my mind of like what I, you know, from when I was really young, like, you know, I want to get into galleries and I want to be part of the art world and, and frankly, got a little disillusioned pretty rapidly after doing a show in Manhattan. I was doing shows all up and down the West Coast. And I just kind of reached this point where I was like doing some introspection on like what is it really mean to be an artist versus what we're told it's supposed to be? And is it practical to support yourself? If so. what game do you have to play in this art world, which I kind of figured out quickly was not a game I wanted to play. So then it's like, well then what's my alternatives? And how do you pursue all that without losing yourself?
Well, could we go back a little bit further? You painted, there's a landscape photo in here or a landscape that you painted. I think you said you were about 10 when you painted that. It's in the paint room. And do you remember painting that?
I don't remember painting it, but I remember that period of time, you know, I was doing what you know, a lot of people do like, you know, I was probably watching a Bob Ross kind of show back then and was dabbling and trying to figure it all out. And I remember, I don't remember painting that one, but I remember giving it to my grandparents. And then my aunt ended up sending it to us, you know, a couple of years back, which was kind of surreal to see and know that it still existed.
And so when you were around that age, did you always paint? Or did you sort of stop for a little while and then pick it up again and you're like 18 and 19? Or how did that work?
I don't know, it's just something I always was interested in doing. I went through quite a few years when I was a kid painting birds. I've always loved birds. So I did a long stretch of doing that. Then when I became a teenager, I started working in my dad's shop, which was doing custom paint and the early iteration of what I ended up doing with sign painting and that kind of work. So I was always around stuff and had the desire to create art. But, you know, again... Once you get yourself out there and you're really trying to sort out, like, how do I inhabit this space of being an artist? Like, you really have to break it all down and define what that means to you and what that looks like, how do you keep your integrity, all that stuff.
And what was the first, what came first? Was it the show in San Antonio when you were late teens, early 20s, or was it the birth of your son? What came first or was it simultaneous?
He had just been born at that point. So yeah, I was a young dad. I was probably 20 or 21 when I did that show.
And that was in San Antonio?
That was in San Antonio. It ended up becoming an iconic coffee shop downtown later. And it's now gone. hip spot in town. And I, you know, went in completely blind, not knowing how to approach anything or what to do. And, you know, ended up showing the owner some slides of my work and got a one-man show, which I didn't even know what that meant at the time. But that, you know, in retrospect, that was kind of a great way to start off. But again, having no clue what I was doing or... what I really wanted to do with that. I was just excited to do it.
And was that the same time when you really decided like, okay, this is it, I want to be an artist, like I want to create as my way of life.
It wasn't really like that. I had already, by that point, had been working with my father and his shop and I really didn't see any other options available to me. So I just grew up in a working class household and was surrounded by art, but wasn't really... I definitely didn't go the conventional path of like going to art school and doing all this other stuff. I was working full-time when I was a young teenager. So it was more just, I really wanna do this creative stuff and then how do I make that part of... like what I do for a living, which took many years to figure that out. But that's.
So do you think this, the first principle that you have here in the Artist’s Tao, it, it reads define yourself, define your life as an artist, as you see fit, not by society's definitions of what an artist is, do not allow anyone to confine you with a stereotype. So do you feel like, you know, after that first show, did you sort of define yourself or were you thinking in your head like, oh, an artist does this or that? Or were you sort of open to like sort of what was sort of unfolding at that time?
No, and you know, it's not an accident that I put that as the first one in the book because to me, it's such an important lesson and it was a hard lesson for me to learn when I was younger. I think I bought into the whole Hollywood type stereotype of like what an artist is supposed to be like, you know, tortured and you know, you know, I already had developed, you know, an addiction issue and I kind of viewed that as like an endorsement that I was on the right track and you know, yeah. So I think it's just really, really like probably the most important thing from... out the gate of someone who's moving in a direction towards creating a life where art is at the center of it, is just understanding who you are, what your values are, and not letting someone or something else define that for you. Because in my case, it probably prolonged getting to the point where I actually did confront my addictions and overcome them and those kinds of things. So I think it's just really important to just be completely real about who you are and not get wrapped up in this is what society has said an artist is. Because frankly, the whole thing has been hijacked in the last 100 years, art, artisans, craftsmanship, you know, all of this stuff was kind of all the same mix. And once this whole gallery system that then got hijacked by the collecting world and the people investing in art for, you know, collecting and all of that, once that really kicked in, you know, it was, it became this very rigid thing of what an artist is in society. And I mean, In my opinion, if you're working creatively and you're expressing yourself and you're putting things out into the world, you are an artist. You get to define that, not some other institution.
Do you feel what I was hearing you say before, I don't want to assume, were you feeling that you were kind of being defined by... you know, whatever your circumstance was, instead of you just sort of defining yourself until you got to a point where, like you said, you confronted your addiction and was able to like rise above that. Do you feel like you were sort of allowing yourself to be defined?
Yeah, I do. But it's also, it's hard to separate yourself, you know. Art is something you do. And then, you know, whether you're doing that or not, you may have... addiction issues or you may have issues with depression and anxiety and these other things, which are all things that I struggled with for years. It's hard to know where the line starts and stops as far as how much of this is involved in the fact that this is the work I want to create and how much of this is just I've got baggage to clear out and deal with. An additional voice in the mix of... this is what society thinks I should be doing and how I should behave in this role, I think is the problem. And that's the whole point of that first principle to me is like right out of the bat, get this part figured out, or at least spend time on it. You might not figure it out right away, but at least spend time on like, are you defining who you are and what your work is and what it means and where that... fits in with the bigger picture or is someone else involved in that? Because they can't be.
So, what is an artist?
Well, that you probably get a hundred different answers asking a hundred different people. But I would say in my definition, which I cover later in the book and it's tied in with a much larger project we've been working on for years now is, you know, I think art is an expression of love. I think that when we spend all of the time and passion of learning how to express ourselves and we put that together in some form, whether it's a painting or music or film or you name it, and then we're sharing that with other people, like in its purest form, that art is love. And so to me... When you ask what is an artist, I think my only answer would be is someone who is creating something with the intention of sharing it with other people from a place of love. If you're creating something for money, for fame, for whatever, you lose that. And, you know, that's typically, you know, we all know it when we see it. You know, we see and hear music or, you know. any other form of artistic expression. And that's why some people get called sellouts, is because it's like you can just tell that they're just trying to make a hit or something.
Yeah. So do you recall your gallery showing in Manhattan? And what was that like for you? It's just making me think of that time and maybe a couple of things that you said, that was such an interesting time for you. how, when you're saying, what is an artist like, and you did those gallery shows that you thought would be this great thing, and then you got there.
Yeah, that was 2006 or 2007 was the New York show. And that was, I mean, it wasn't a negative experience and the people I dealt with were very supportive. So it was more stuff that was going on inside of me. I don't know. I had been offered that show when I was in my 20s and turned it down. Then ended up contacting that same gallery back when I was in my 30s and ended up being offered a show again after resubmitting my work. I don't know. I just kind of had built up frankly a fantasy I think of what... what all that would be and what my role in that would be. And when I got there, I just, that was a little bit of a turning point for me of realizing like, if I want to build something that I'm happy with and proud of, then this isn't the way for me.
Do you think that was like really the time that you defined yourself in your way? Not as a stereotypical artist, but in the way that you really desired to like come into your own?
Yeah, that was a big, big change for me, which set me on a path of kind of creating something completely... my own as opposed to, you know, oh, well, there's this gallery system and you do paintings and you submit them and you, you know, show up at this cocktail party and meet collectors and then you do this and then, you know, like all of that's laid out for you. And I wasn't really comfortable with that. It's not something I really wanted to do. And then that's when I came back and I was living in San Francisco at the time. And that's when I came back and was like, I don't really know what it looks like, but I want to create a studio that kind of just is a catch-all of all the things that I am passionate about creating. That's when I really dove in and returned to sign painting, gold leafing, making music, in addition to the original paintings. Everything was just like, okay, I'm going to do the things that I want to do and do it my own way and turn that into some way of supporting myself.
Yeah, that's awesome. I really, I love the cowboy Buddha. I call him the cowboy Buddha, but I know you call it something else, the Buddha with the agave.
Yeah, that, you know, when we had gotten back from Nepal and shooting the documentary out there, you know, I was really pretty charged up from... meeting with the Thangka painters and everything. Kind of love the idea of mixing the Texas aspect of the agave and the prickly pear cactus with the Buddha. The concept of the Buddha is everywhere. We seem to associate it with Tibet and India and Nepal, but I liked the idea of bringing him home, so to speak.
Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
Thanks.
So what do you think your, what would you like everybody to maybe take away from our first podcast for the Artist’s Tao and for that first principle, what would be the, I know it's define yourself, but do you want to expand on that a little bit more?
Yeah, I, you know, I just. I mean, I can only speak from my perspective of what has like worked for me and helped me and, you know, these are all based on not only my own realizations, if you will, but also conversations with other artists. And they seem to be pretty universal. I think most artists that have like stuck it out and turned into something would probably agree. with most of these in here is, yeah, it's... If you don't define yourself, and it isn't even defining yourself, it's not like you're sitting down and saying, this is what I'm going to be. It's more identifying who you are. If you don't do that, somebody else will. The art world especially, especially if you get any traction, they will rush to do that. And I saw that forming and realized I will never be happy that way.
Excuse me. When did you see that? Did you feel like you were being sort of pigeonholed into something or like when was that?
Not really pigeonholed. It was more there's a mechanism in place and in how this all operates. And unfortunately, and even more so now than it was in 2006 money is at the center of that mechanism. And so there's this machinery that's there to take a person, define them, market them with the end goal of the art machine making the bulk of the money. And, you know, it's a tiny sliver of percentage of artists that actually really start selling work on any level. Artists are getting very little compensation because of that machinery. And it was apparent to me that even if I continued to have the doors open and success that was being presented to me, that it would still be a long, long road before I could make it, the money I needed to support myself, but also that would come with a lot of compromises that I was not probably willing to make.
When do you think that was that you pulled that together? Really that locked in? Was that 06 with the gallery?
06 and 07 and then in 08 is when I really dove back into sign painting, which was my trade background, approaching it in an entirely different way. You know, instead of this is my trade, it was how can I create and express art through this trade and build it into something different that's, you know, something I want to do every day. And Fortunately, that all worked out really well.
Yes. Do you have, like when you say not by society's definitions, like is there a specific thing or is it mostly like an artist as a commodity, like as a way like you were saying before, there's a price on your artwork and that's how you're being defined?
Yeah. I mean, there's the practicality issue. If you're going to make any form of art, you also have to generate an income. That's the world we live in. That's not a bad thing. I don't feel like that's compromising in any way when a person does that. I mean, it's a necessity. If you can't pay the rent and support yourself, you can't continue to do what you're doing. You have to go work somewhere else and do something else. So, yeah, you used a good word. I mean, it's commodity. There's a certain... aspect that I observed in the gallery world of herding in all the cattle of artists and them just knowing that by percentages, one out of however many might get some traction and they'll make some money off of it. And very little time being spent on getting to know the artists, getting to... like really understand, okay, what are you doing? What's your motivation? Why are you creating these things? That kind of thing. It was just more like, you know, if we slap up enough things enough times, some of these are going to sell and we'll put more energy behind what sells.
Would you say that Andy Warhol was somebody that he defined himself, like he kind of put his whole thing together almost like, you know, he was putting himself out there as this is the kind he defined himself, right? He didn't have society define him, right?
Yeah, I'm certainly no expert on him. But from what I do know about him, it appears that way. It appears that he kind of took that route as well. I mean, you know, most of his paintings were silk-screened prints, you know. So it's like, and he was involved in film and doing all sorts of things. So yeah, he's probably a really good example to look at of someone who really you know, achieved a broad range of things. No one had ever approached it that way before.
Right.
And so he was able to create something completely new. Whereas if you're looking at like the impressionists or you then look at some guy like Picasso or whatever, and you're trying to model yourself after that, modeling yourself after anyone is a mistake because they're... the strengths that you have is there's only one you. There's only one unique vision that's in your head. And so if you're just mimicking what Jackson Pollock did or any of these guys, you're missing the whole point because the great contribution that you have is the vision that's coming out of your eyes into the world.
But would you say though that as an artist, like you... there's a part of you that needs to have a business sense. I feel like there has to be, if you're gonna be your own, if you're gonna put yourself out there and sort of pave your way, I feel like one must have, be able to understand the mechanics of the business part.
Yeah, and that's tricky too. I mean, I'm not a business person. I have developed some, you know, ways of doing things that have... um created a successful business for the studio but i'm not a business person i don't have that background i don't have uh you know the knowledge to really know how to put all that together and i don't really want to honestly I you know I know enough to keep the lights on and uh you know keep things going but i don't really i'm saying that for the you know the residents of rainbow valley of which I...
You're the mayor.
I'm the mayor of. But like, you know, if I were somebody that's like, oh, you know, I do this great kind of art and this is the art I do and like everything's going to be fine. Okay, there's a certain truth to that. And I'm also going to need to know how to balance my checkbook. You know what I'm saying?
Well, yeah. And that's covered in upcoming episodes because we'll be going over that. That is touched on multiple times in the book of... Yeah. You do have to balance... the practical stuff with, you know, I just want to, you know, hang out and paint my paintings or make my music or whatever, you do have to balance it and find a way to support yourself. I mean, and that supporting yourself may be working like down at the coffee shop during the day and at night you're doing your thing and that, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. I just happened to have had a really great... situation of growing up, you know, working in my dad's, you know, graphics shop and everything where I got to see, okay, this is how you can make money doing something like this. And then I was able to apply it later.
Yeah. And also I've said this to you before too, when you were working at the place in Seattle, was that, that was a sign shop too? And you were in the graphics
We live in a tiny town and there's a train right behind our building that comes to me. So that's what you're hearing. I really feel like from what you've told me anyway, that what I take away from that was like you really use that to your advantage, you know, by, you know, doing all the things that the guy was asking you to do as far as like going to the color theory class or like doing all those things that you had opportunity to do sort of seize the moment I think in those years to really sort of. I don't know, ground yourself in.
Yeah, I mean, in that era, I was like, you know, I came into that specific job with zero computer knowledge and had only done completely hand rendered work in my dad's shop up till that point. And you know, instead of shying away from it, I, you know, I did see... opportunity that like this might come in really handy someday and it and it has. I mean just even understanding how to do basic stuff on a computer for the operation of a business is really a valuable thing to know and yeah so I again it's the defining yourself it if your definition that you've adopted from other people is that you know I'm only going to do everything by hand, I'm not touching a computer, that's okay if that's your definition, but if you're coming to that from some other place, that's been imposed on you in some way of your perception of what an artist is, then that can work against you. Because to me, I want access to as many tools as I can have, whether it's a paintbrush or a computer to. edit down a video for a podcast or whatever it is. I want all the tools to do all the things I want to do. For me, that's my definition.
Do not allow anyone to confine you with a stereotype.
So we'll see you next week.
See you next week. Thanks for coming by.